Thank you, Mark, for your exhortation to sobriety in consideration of this normative estate for mankind: marriage. You are following the admonition of Titus 2:6, "Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded."

On the one hand, many people -- young men and young ladies alike -- are caught up in a romantic world somewhere beyond the clouds which ignores the grave responsibilities of marriage. On the other hand, you have some -- notably, many within the homeschool movement -- who are focusing on giving their younger years to "serving the Lord." They might count it sinful -- at least ill-advised -- to contemplate marriage because they have committed to wait until they are 25 or 30 to marry. (Please know that I am not mocking these folks, and I have great respect for many of them. I do believe, however, that their perspectives are often flawed. That said, however, I do not intend to question their motives, and I realize that many of them are quite superior and godly. Deep down, I sometimes pity these young ladies in their late 20's or 30's who -- for whatever reason -- are not married and have no prospects.)

But let me get to my point: Marriage is normative, as Doug Phillips often reminded us. We must approach the topic in an epistemologically self-conscious manner, just as we would any other topic. We must not let emotionalism, rationalism, romanticism, or anything else cloud our thinking.

From our many discussions on this topic in the past, Mark, I can safely say that you and I see eye to eye (for the most part, at least). We both recognize our deficiencies and frailty. We are sinful creatures who find it difficult to think through marriage with a clear mind, let alone spend time in the vicinity of an attractive young lady. (Let's be fair; you know what I am talking about.)

Even so, we strive to think God's thoughts after Him and view marriage properly. We realize that getting married will solve at least one problem: the looming question of whom I will marry and when. However, marriage will create a whole new set of glorious, wonderful, and "deadly serious" questions that you mention in your blog. Can I provide? Am I ready to have many children and to raise them for the Lord? Am I willing to live with this woman after her youthful beauty fades (or even before her beauty fades, for that matter)?

Most importantly: Do I have my God-ordained life mission established? I am not saying that a young man has to have accomplished all of his goals. He must know his calling, however, and be ready to receive a helper from the Lord. Until such time as he is ready, his focus should be on preparation.

This is the end, for now, of C.S. Hayden's thoughts on the issue of normativity. I always enjoy discussing this, as you well know. Thank you again for posting on this topic, and thanks especially for your exhortation to sobriety.

Great summary, Caleb.

I’ll probably post more on the subject as time allows. As I said, those are some preliminary thoughts on the subject.

To my cohorts in crime, masters Caleb Hayden and Marcus Stublefieldus.

just a quick note to say "right on" Mark both of you posts were thought provoking and merit
further discussion. I was especially struck by your indictment of men in our day falling prey to the deception that being a provider is their only role. It is so easy to also slip into this way of thinking. Yet God calls us to so much more.
I am sure you are awaire that Rushdoony and more recently MR. Phillips categorized a husbands roles into four sectors. That of Provider, Protector, Progenetor and Priest. These four, I believe, aptly summarize the functions that a we as men need to fill as we assume the responsibilities of marriage.

Caleb, it is always good to "hear" from you and I thought you comments were excellent as well.

Yours for a speedy assumption of "normativity" and a more epistemologically-self consious view of marriage.

NS

I for one am happy to see a young man thinking so clearly, Mark. Your words were like a sauve. So much of the opposite is heard. And Caleb, might I add--don't waste your pity on those single, without prospects, if they are busy in the Lord's work., they are extremely blessed. Remember Paul's words! While it is the dream of many to be married, and the Lord certainly allows it; I have been concerned over the worldly attitude that one must be married and that right early. It has caused much, much heart-ache in believer's lives. I love to see real men willing to wait. That shows manly character and is so precious in a marriage. If there is a raising up of an army of individuals that have self-control and put the Lord truly first, not only in words but in actions, then praise be to God. This is not something I saw often as a pioneer home-schooler. Remember Isaac at age 40, he wasn't in a hurry and he got a gem. I can cite many other examples of waiting and truly allowing God to provide vs. early marriages and the living disaster that entails. Keep up the good thinking.

Dear Anonymous,

Thanks for your thoughts, as well. There is a needed balance in this discussion. I personally know of young ladies who would like to be married but who do not have prospects. I know that they struggle with this at times. I do not believe that any person would deny this, but your sentiments are well-taken. They should not be "pitied," perhaps, but the proverbial finger ought to be pointed at young men who are not preparing themselves. (Hence, our mutual appreciation for Mark's comments.) This lack of preparation creates a lack of young men suitable for eligible young ladies who desire marriage. (Add to this the fact that some de-emphasize marriage preparation because of their "wait at all costs" mentality that I referenced before.) This was the context in which I made my statements, even if that was not clear in my rambling post.

I will contend that God's normative pattern is youthful marriage. This is seen throughout Scripture, and Paul's words represent a specific instruction at a specific time ("for the present distress"). However, in our day and age -- as you observed -- this normative pattern is often transformed to a worldly mentality and has caused people to marry before they are ready. This, not youthful marriage itself, is the cause of the heartache. (Heartache can even occur when a 30-something who is not prepared marries. Age is not the defining factor.)

I hope this clarifies my thoughts. After I posted previously, I reconsidered my wording and realized that I would likely receive some guff. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify myself.

CS

Mark,

I'm a bit late, I guess, in reading this increadibly encouraging message! But I'm glad the Lord finally gave me time to view your stately blog.

I was especially encouraged by how you pointed out that most young men never consider how their spouse's outward beauty will slowly fade. This fact contributes wildly to the epidemic of divorces that take place in mid-life. By focusing on the girl's inward desire for the Lord and her capatibility as a helpmeet, a marriage becomes so much more dynamic, enjoyable, and steadfast.

In my social circles, I know a variety of men who are serious about serving the Lord and men who just want to have fun. I know young ladies who are eagerly training to be helpmeets to their husbands, and others who seem to be more interested in builiding a name for themselves.

This past weekend, however, I had the privilege of video-taping a wedding for a couple who are living epistles, in so many ways, of the message you shared. Their hearts are for the Lord and that fact spills out so clearly in the utter sensitivity they have for one another, and the dedication they have to glorify God as a unit. They are not miserable people for having sought to discern and apply God's standards for marriage; they are two of the most in-love people I have ever seen!

Anyway, I'm very pleased to become one of the readers of your fair blog. Please continue to keep us updated on your latest antics, escapades, and insights!

Darnell

Thank you, Mr. Darnell.

It is good to hear from you :)

Welcome to my blog and thank you for your excellent comment.

Thank you, Mark, for sharing your thoughts on this subject. As a young woman I am often wishing to "see inside" a young man's mind. You are completely right that young men should consider these things and I hope that many rise up to contemplate these challenging subjects.
But, on the flip side of the coin, do you think there are some who are too intimidated by the many things that seem to loom over marriage and hence become "afraid" to even condider marriage until they have completley fulfilled every requirement, consequently becoming much older and leaving all the ladies to wait? Or do you think that they are intimidated because of the (maybe seemingly) huge expectations of the young ladies' fathers? I would like to know your thoughts on that.
Also I would like to comment on what you said about brides becoming, well, not so beautiful. You are very right in that, and if young men understood that point it would take a lot of pressure off of young ladies to look perfect. However, I would like to point out that this works both directions. Young women who are hoping and praying for someone to be a help-meet to, are looking for a man who demonstrates the character qualities of humility, self-sacrifice, and self-discipline, to name a few. A real woman is not impressed by a man who likes to show off how much he knows (whether it is computers, history, or even the Bible), his muscles, or how well he plays sports! Let's face it, as the years go on gravity affects the man too, his metabolism slows, he loses muscle mass, and he may lose his hair, whether or not they are blessed with children!!! I hope you will share that with young men also.
But because you are growing older together, you will love and appreciate the path that God has taken you on. You are right in that we all should not put high importance on physical attraction because the outside is just a package and is ever-changing. I am eagerly awaiting a reply. A sister in Christ

Mark,
Thank you! I really appreciate your willingness to step up to the plate and act as a Titus 2:6 young man. As a young lady, it can be very discouraging to see the deplorable lack of Godly young men commited to "preparing their fields" before ever trying to "build their houses". So many messages are commited to advising young ladies as to what they should be doing during their single years in their father's house (learning to cook, clean, keep a home, etc.), but so few men have thought of the specific things that a young man needs to keep in mind while preparing for marrige. Thank you for bringing some of these points to the front. I look forward to reading your next posts on this subject. May God raise up a generation of men who are commited to "preparing their fields" and preparing their hearts to seek the Lord, and ladies who throw themselves heart and soul into being the daughters, wives and mothers that God has called them to be.
To The King and the Restoration of His Kingdom!

To Anonymous: (whom should not be afraid to reveal her identity.)

Thank you for your kind words regarding my post. I appreciate your honesty and forethought as well. As your brother in Christ, I want you to first know that I do not feel comfortable providing specific council to any young lady, even though the Internet is a wonderful platform for depersonalization and anonymity. I want to be careful that I speak to the broader issues and not specifics, as that type of council is reserved for my future bride, and only my future bride, and such council being given to a young lady should ultimately come from her father or husband to be. But, your questions are very valid and are questions that every young lady should be considering. Thank you for your wise and careful words.

Regarding young men being intimidated (afraid) of the many responsibilities that loom over the covenant of marriage: I cannot speak for every young man, of course, but I would say that it is indeed possible to fall into the mindset as a young man and convince yourself that you just don’t care about such things -- out of fear or for many other reasons -- and shun future responsibility. I have seen this happen and usually the results are tragic if young men allow themselves to follow this line of reasoning to a perpetual degree. This mindset is ultimately sin and will lead to habitual sin.

So, my simple response is, I believe it is easier for young men that are more epistemologically self-conscious regarding marriage to fall into this trap. And yes, I do believe young men do fall into this trap at times, just as they fall into numerous other traps that render them useless. This is why young men must be sober minded in directing their thoughts to first and foremost honor Christ and not allow marriage to become an idol, either by loving the thought of it too much, or by shunning the responsibilities of it. Either way, it results in idolatry.

Young men must focus on Christ, focus on the roles of Biblical manhood, and not think of those roles in the context of marriage, but think of them in the context of Christ and Christ alone. Marriage is just an aspect of life, it should not define the life of a man or his motives for reaching minimal thresholds required to be married. Remember, Adam wasn’t sitting around in the garden asking himself, “hmm, what can I be doing that would merit me a helpmeet, and how can I fulfill those requirements that lead me to a point of needing a wife?” He was busy living his life for the glory of God and needed help. His focus was on the work that Lord had given him, and then when the realization hit that a helpmeet was needed, that is when woman became all the more precious to him. (There is much more than can be said about this but I am only responding to your specific questions. And I only have 30 minutes to respond.)

Also, regarding the father’s role and the possible intimidation factor that comes into play for some young men: (I am only going to scratch the surface on this one, as the possibilities are endless in various circumstances.) Again, yet another valid point that does affect some young men when considering specific young ladies. Ultimately, young men need to realize that God is sovereign and not even a young ladies father will get in the way of two people becoming united as one, if it is the will of God. Our Lord can change the heart of a father, just as He can change the heart of a young man that would allow the fear of man to influence his pursuit of a young lady. A young man cannot look at the expectations of a father as his basis for being able to win a young lady. His focus has to be on meeting the expectations of The heavenly Father. Granted, there are specific circumstances where a father will require a young man to complete certain requirements before he is able to marry his daughter, and often times these are very valid. These circumstances will result in the discipline of a young man and his willingness to lay down his life for his bride. Before a young man can even consider laying down his life for his bride he must understand what it is to lay down his life for Christ. Then the details of preparing and obtaining his bride will flow from the scriptures. And as I said earlier, ultimately every man is going to marry ‘the one’ for him, since God is completely sovereign over our petty desires and circumstances.

Regarding the fading beauty of both men and women, and the Christ honoring traits to admire in both: You are absolutely correct. Just as young ladies beauty will fade, so too will the manliness of young men pass away. This is human nature in both body and soul. We’re dying from the moment we have been born, and we are all sinful creatures. We must redeem the time that has been given on this earth and use every moment wisely while we do have our strength. This is also why we must view our bodies as tools of dominion and not personal recreation vehicles.

I would also comment that it is very important that young men once again be sober minded and neither allow pride or bride to bolster their confidence. As young men, it is easy to become prideful because this time in our lives is a time of glory, when many of our abilities and strengths are coming to the forefront of their potential. So, we must be sober and think about our words and actions. On the other hand, we must also be bold and proclaim truth and use those abilities for the glory of God.

One of the evils that we have been given in our feminized culture is the denial of acting as bold men. Bold manhood is often mistaken for arrogance when in reality it is a young man taking joy in the strength that has been given to him by the Lord, or acting passionately out of conviction. The Bible instructs a young man to take joy in his strength and labor. It is important to avoid pride as a young man, but it is also important that we build a culture that does not dampen the energetic enthusiasm that is unique to young men. This youthful boldness is often thought to be pride by those that observe young men.

I think it is perfectly valid to say that a real woman is not impressed by how much a man knows, but I think ladies better realize that God has given those gifts to men for His glory. And if a man is using those gifts for the glory of God then a young lady, (and anyone else for that matter), should rejoice that such gifts are being used for the glory of God. You are correct though, a young lady should not allow such talents to impress her in and of themselves, but as they are used to bring honor to Christ it should ‘impress’ a young lady in the context of the kingdom being proclaimed. A young lady should also admire and exhort such gifts in her fathers / husbands life as she is to act in the role of encourager.

All that to say, we must not be cynical, we must realize that the battle is bigger than ourselves or the person we desire to marry, and we must not allow the wonderful joys of marriage to drive our life focus, nor can we allow it to take a subversive role as we wait on the Lord for our other half. It isn’t rocket science, nor is it simplistic -- as we daily battle the emotional aspects of our human nature when it comes to the process of waiting for the one spouse the Lord has reserved for His glory.

Does that somewhat address what you were referring to in your post?

Your brother in Christ,

Mark

Mark, thanks for sharing those additional thoughts. Anonymous, your observations and questions were insightful and challenging. I wish that young people would consider these issues in an epistemologically self-conscious manner instead of listening to their feelings, hormones, deceitful hearts, the culture, and other negative influences.

May we strive for deeper understanding and wisdom from God's Word. Thank you for fostering this discussion, Mark.

CS

Mark,
I just wanted to thank you for answering my questions. I will be away from the computer for several days, but would like to comment a little more when I return.
The same sister in Christ

Mark, Great Blog! I am enjoying readin your post each day!!

I wanted to comment here on one thing you said.............
"Young men should ask themselves, am I willing to marry a beautiful young lady who, with time, will unavoidably be a less attractive, older and ever aging woman, who will show the affects of many years of childbirth as gravity sets in? (If the Lord blesses with children)."
My question here would be by whos standard does a woman loose her attractiveness? And Why was the young man looking at her physical attractiveness to begin with? Would love to hear your insights!!

Hello anonymous,

Thank you for your kind words. I hope first and foremost the Lord is honored by any word that I write or speak. I will do my best to quickly and accurately answer your questions:

Attractiveness can vary from person to person and even be unbiblical, as is the case with different forms of perversion. To be attracted to something doesn’t make it biblically-beautiful. So, it is important to make a distinction between beauty and attractiveness. Beauty is spoken of in many ways in the scriptures, the beauty of holiness, the beautiful of land, the beauty of a woman, the list goes on. It is not wrong for a young man to admire the beauty of a woman or to recognize that it is indeed beautiful to him, and the same thing can be said about different forms of beauty. The scriptures tell us that the strange woman, mentioned in Proverbs 26, was beautiful and that the young man was to avoid lusting after her beauty. She was a wicked woman but even as a wicked woman the scriptures recognize that she was beautiful to the young man because she was made as a woman. We must also recognize that the scripture makes varied distinctions as to the beauty of a woman and testifies that Rachel was beautiful and Leah was “tender eyed”, (Genesis 29:17). One important thing to consider is that admiring beauty and comprehending that it is legitimate is a separate distinction from lusting after it, or applying some form of expectation to that beauty, and losing attraction for it.

In my blog post, I was stating that young men need to avoid applying expectations to the natural beauty of a young woman, as it is fading in nature. That doesn’t mean a man will be less attracted to his wife on varying levels of beauty, nor does it negate the fact that the youthful physical beauty of a woman will lessen with time. Just as mans natural beauty will lessen, or anything else that is subject to the sinful decay of this earth.

If a biblical mindset is applied in the heart of a young man when choosing a bride, then, as you put it, attractiveness will not change in the heart of a man toward his bride. And as the scriptures tell us, it is perfectly legitimate for a young man (or anyone) to admire the God given natural beauty of a young woman, as long as it is viewed through the grid of scripture.

Does this answer your questions?

Mark

(also, I don't know if you are a young woman, but if you are, I would suggest talking to your father about this issue.)

Mark, I agree with your response. It is biblically and practically realistic to expect young men to observe feminine beauty. The problem occurs, as you pointed out in your blog, when a young man focuses on this and expects his wife-to-be to maintain her youthful charm and attractiveness. I actually talked to my Mother and sister about this issue, and they were well aware of the propensity for men to be drawn by what they see. This is important for women to realize, as it will influence what they wear and how they act.

To me, while it may sound holy and pious to say that I do not notice beauty and that I will solely be attracted to my wife-to-be for her character and godliness (this would also be a lie, incidentally), in my humble opinion this perspective fits much better into gnosticism. As you have shown, Mark, Christianity rejects the idea that beauty should be ignored. Indeed, we worship our God in the "beauty of holiness," and this beauty is reflected in His works and creation, including -- if I may be so bold -- womankind.

I wholeheartedly reject perversion of beauty, as you mentioned, but I also wholeheartedly expect to admire the beauty of my wife someday -- keeping in mind constantly that even if her youthful charm fades, she will always be the "most beautiful" woman to me since I have her heart and she has mine.

For what it's worth,
CS

Bravo Mark! Thank You for sharing you thoughts...

Dear Mark,

Our friend Caleb Hayden recently sent us his blog and I happened to read your blog on his list.

I wanted to thank you for your insightful words that express mature biblical thinking.

It is such a blessing to see Our Lord working in and through such young men like you and Caleb, it is very refreshing. I do hope you will submit your article on "Preliminary Thoughts on Marriage" to Vision Forum, or Ladiesagainstfeminism.com (they have a section for men), or some other well read forum. These thoughts need to be shared with morey oung men.

In addition I was very relieved to see you respond so biblically to the young single ladies who have written you. You referred them to their fathers. That is exactly the correct response. We had the same problem when young men wrote our daughter (she writes for L.A.F.) for advice and my husband responded to them directly and referred them to other sources and male authorities.

I do believe that much of this is innocent and result of not being aware of biblical authority. You handled it very kindly and delicately and I appreciate that. Young ladies can be easily wounded especially if they are unaware of proper protocol.

I don't normally look on blogs but I felt this one needed a response.

Sincerely,

Mrs. H.